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Whistleblower tells senators that Meta undermined U.S. security, interests (thehill.com)
imiric 2 hours ago [-]
A whistleblower is not required to determine that Meta, and all adtech companies, have been severely damaging not just to the US, but to all governments and societies where these platforms are used. They don't need to collude with any adversarial government for this to be true.

The same tools built to manipulate people into buying things, are used to manipulate them into thinking and acting in ways that could be beneficial to someone. Advertising and propaganda use the same tactics, after all. When these tools are accessible to anyone, including political adversaries, it would be naive to think that they're not being used for information warfare.

The Cambridge Analytica leak was just the tip of the iceberg. These companies and agencies are still operating at a global scale, and business is booming. Why adtech companies weren't heavily investigated and regulated after this became public is beyond me. These are matters of national security, which anyone sane would consider more important than any financial or practical value they might have.

Banning TikTok was a step in the right direction, but that's far from the only service that needs to be heavily regulated. And even that decision is flip-flopped and very controversial, so the idea of going beyond must be unthinkable. Yet not doing so will lead to the eventual downfall of the US, and the current western hegemony. The instability we're seeing now is just the beginning, and my only hope is that it doesn't escalate to a major global conflict.

Hojojo 2 hours ago [-]
Honestly, it's crazy that any country allows online media to control the national discourse about politics without having any insight into how the algorithms decide what kind of content is shown to whom and how content is moderated or controlled. Then there's bot/propaganda accounts run by who knows who poisoning any political discussion.
avalys 6 minutes ago [-]
All I see in this story is a bunch of things that were under discussion at some point, but never happened.

But then, “Meta considered doing business in China, evaluated and negotiated with the Chinese government what would be required to do so, and then did not proceed” isn’t a story that is going to sell a lot of books or get her a lot of attention.

Another tell that this is a stunt for attention and not a genuine issue is her trying to blame China’s progress in AI on Meta’s release of an open-source model.

goldchainposse 9 hours ago [-]
> They have threatened her with $50,000 in punitive damages every time she mentions Facebook in public … even if the statements she is making are true,” he said.

Unless Congress asks for the testimony, which is probably why Meta tried to stop the hearing.

Alive-in-2025 6 hours ago [-]
But infinitely rich companies can of course bankrupt any ordinary human by suing them over and over again. They already look bad, so it doesn't make them look worse. Why wouldn't they just keep suing her?
JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago [-]
> infinitely rich companies can of course bankrupt any ordinary human by suing them over and over again

No. Not only does SLAPP prevent that, a rich, unpopular company trying to silence a whistleblower through tort is running a PR campaign for their legal defence fund.

More realistic: being blacklisted from employment.

leereeves 6 hours ago [-]
gruez 6 hours ago [-]
Is that's what's happening here? The bit about suing her "even if the statements she is making are true" makes me think they're not trying to sue her via defamation, but through non-disparagement agreements. If that's the case, I'd hesitate to characterize this as SLAPP. If you voluntarily entered into a non-disparagement agreement and got something in exchange (eg. in exchange for severance or whatever), then at the very least it's slightly different than a journalist or whatever trying to expose some scandal.
ben_w 44 minutes ago [-]
For such reasons, I count non-disparagement agreements as a curtailing of free speech.

Everything that makes freedom of speech worth defending when the government wants your silence, also applies to businesses.

The US puts freedom of speech on a pedestal. But stuff like this makes me aware that's a lot more limited than people would like to believe.

(I've signed at least two non-disparagement agreements, but also I'm not in the US).

neuroelectron 4 hours ago [-]
Not really surprising. I'm sure all the major tech companies are engaged in this kind of deal making. The influence of China over Amazon is obvious and there has been cases of algorithmic tampering and account unlocking in their favor.
loeg 6 hours ago [-]
FWIW, she was fired in 2017 and only now is trying to become a "whistleblower." If the conduct needed whistle-blowing, surely it would have been more timely to come out almost a decade ago.
jdgoesmarching 5 hours ago [-]
Given how forcefully Meta has cracked down on this, this doesn’t feel like that big of a gotcha. Hell, she’s not even allowed to speak about it outside of congressional hearings because of Zuck’s lawyers. If not for her book, we wouldn’t be talking about this at all.
JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago [-]
> she was fired in 2017 and only now is trying to become a "whistleblower"

It's a lot easier to be a whistleblower once you're materially comfortable. More than the threat of legal action is the insidiousness of being blacklisted for employment. I wouldn't take the delay from the actions as evidence of her having ulterior motives. Just that we need contemporaneous notes and/or evidence to ensure she isn't misremembering.

trhway 6 hours ago [-]
She published a book with these FB "revelations" recently, like a month ago, so kind of PR tour.
MeetingsBrowser 4 hours ago [-]
Playing devil's advocate: If the allegations about Meta violating laws in the book are true, what would be an appropriate waiting period before the author testifies to the Senate, so that it doesn't appear to be a PR tour?
loeg 3 hours ago [-]
She could have raised her concerns in 2017 or earlier, rather than 2025, when her knowledge is eight years out of date.
cookiengineer 3 hours ago [-]
Not sure why you are writing this bad faith argument. Not a single legal system on the planet is that fast. All class action law suits take years of preparation time in their discovery phase.
trhway 4 hours ago [-]
A negative value, about -7 years in this case.
curt15 9 hours ago [-]
>In remarks to a hearing convened by Sen. Josh Hawley (R-Mo.), Wynn-Williams alleged that Meta executives worked vigorously to “win favor” with leaders in Beijing to build an $18 billion business in China.

Has Hawley demonstrated similar interest about Elon's business dealings in China? Elon owes much of his net worth to the CCP's Shanghai factory.

transcriptase 7 hours ago [-]
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? Nearly every CEO at a company making physical products from 1990 onward owes much of their net worth to Chinese factories.
cma 7 hours ago [-]
I think Musk got one of the biggest concessions ever without any precedent, something like 100% ownership where no other car plant ever got that before.
ashoeafoot 3 hours ago [-]
And Ukraine got the minsk agreements, the 1990 "assurances" of independence , concessions and contracts by countries without legal system and kinglike rulers are worthless. So he had a extraordinary piece of paper? So what..
chasil 6 hours ago [-]
I don't think that anyone could have predicted one year ago where Elon Musk would be today.

I think the same is true of next year.

That man is full of surprises.

jxjnskkzxxhx 2 hours ago [-]
I predict he's not gonna be on Mars.
vasco 4 hours ago [-]
If you're a director of global public policy for seven years, who are you really whistleblowing, the company, or yourself?

I appreciate the information coming out, but in some of these situations I can't help but picture that "the worst person in the room" in regards to the offenses might also end up being the person that then becomes the most holier than thou when they get out of the company.

If you ever met someone who used to work in software ads and ask them about privacy you'll get what I mean.

FrancisMoodie 55 minutes ago [-]
I get your point, but also, so what? The point of this whistle-blowing is that the public gets to make informed decisions about these companies that provide us with services that much of us use daily, and that the government gets a chance to figure out whether this is the truth or not and take actions accordingly. It's not about who is guilty right now but what needs to be done to prevent this in the future, IMO.

And whatever she might be guilty of doing, the chances of her ever having the same access to sensitive information in any company has gone drastically down after coming forward with this information.

dralley 4 hours ago [-]
Aurornis 9 hours ago [-]
> And she says she has the “documents” to back up her accusations.

Then show those documents? It's hard to take these allegations seriously when the mysterious proof is only alluded to, not submitted as part of the testimony.

bbatsell 9 hours ago [-]
Almost certainly blocked by NDA; that is her inviting Congress to issue a subpoena so she has legal cover.
Aurornis 9 hours ago [-]
A corporate NDA doesn't block someone from cooperating with legal proceedings or submitting evidence to a hearing.
lokar 8 hours ago [-]
And an NDA being void due to such a situation does not stop the company from taking legal action against, costing you lots of money and time to defend
typeofhuman 7 hours ago [-]
Exactly. That's why the public hearing was held. To make her and the case famous. This is how you play the game. Now Meta can still sue but it risks damaging its public image by going after a famous whistleblower.
confidantlake 6 hours ago [-]
One of the benefits of having a lot of scandals. Will get buried in the noise. Those that care about this kind of stuff already hated meta, those that don't care won't start caring now.
_DeadFred_ 3 hours ago [-]
The US also has whistleblower protection laws.
Aurornis 6 hours ago [-]
> And an NDA being void due to such a situation does not stop the company from taking legal action against, costing you lots of money and time to defend

Not really. If the NDA is void (such as the case with congressional hearings), there isn't going to be a lengthy legal proceeding. The judge would look at it and throw it out.

jvanderbot 8 hours ago [-]
Exactly what legal proceedings though? That's the point.
stackskipton 7 hours ago [-]
Congressional Subpoenas are at same level as Court Subpoena. So if Congress subpoenaed her documents, she could (willingly) turn them over and not be in breach of her NDA.
5 hours ago [-]
Aurornis 6 hours ago [-]
Congressional hearings can compel witnesses to answer questions under oath, among other things.

People brought before a Congressional hearing like this can be held in contempt of court for failure to cooperate. Testimony is subject to perjury laws.

This wasn't just someone writing a letter to Congress with some claims. This was a Senate hearing convened on the matter.

stackskipton 7 hours ago [-]
You can end up in legal quandary where you fight over exactly what NDA can and cannot cover. Congressional Subpoena would put her on much firmer legal standing. My guess is her lawyers recommended this strategy.
Aurornis 6 hours ago [-]
> You can end up in legal quandary where you fight over exactly what NDA can and cannot cover. Congressional Subpoena would put her on much firmer legal standing

A corporate NDA cannot prevent you from cooperating with a Congressional hearing.

hluska 7 hours ago [-]
Why did you just make up a legal proceeding? There are no proceedings (yet) - that is the entire point of this.
Alive-in-2025 6 hours ago [-]
I heard about her book, I also heard about lawsuit threats from Facebook. Facebook is a rich company so a threat from them to sue you is a serious threat. I'm sure they threaten to sue people to try to quash uncomfortable information as do probably lots of companies. Are you thinking she made up the threatened lawsuits?
tsimionescu 3 hours ago [-]
No, the poster they were responding to was claiming that the whisleblower didn't need to wait for a congressional hearing, that she could have just presented the documents she claims to have as "evidence for a legal proceeding". But such a legal proceeding doesn't exist (apart from the Congressional hearing she was waiting for), there is no one suing Facebook for corporate malfeasance or whatever where she could present some documents she has as evidence while abiding by her NDA.
Aurornis 6 hours ago [-]
My full comment included "or submit evidence to a hearing"

A Congressional hearing can compel people to give testimony under oath. Witnesses can be held in contempt for failure to answer questions.

filoleg 8 hours ago [-]
It is even harder to take the accusations seriously, given that she made factually provably wrong statements that contradict the reality (and the original article in the OP actually contrasted those very plainly and directly, gotta commend good journalism there).

> Wynn-Willias told senators that Meta built a “physical pipeline connecting the United States and China” and executives “ignored warnings that this would provide backdoor access to the Chinese Communist Party, allowing them to intercept the personal data and private messages of American citizens.”

> She said that China does not currently have access to U.S. user data only because Congress “stepped in.”

> The pipeline to China mentioned by the whistleblower, the Pacific Light Cable, was never completed.

> The cable, which was first announced in 2016 with support from Facebook, Google and other companies, was envisioned as a high-capacity fiberoptic undersea cable running thousands of miles under the Pacific Ocean connecting Los Angeles and Hong Kong.

> Bloomberg reported in 2020 that Facebook, Google and other companies abandoned their plans to link the U.S. to Hong Kong. They revised their proposal to build the link only as far as Taiwan and the Philippines, according to Bloomberg.

Real talk, I have zero idea how she could explain this one away, other than with “it came to me in a dream.”

MeetingsBrowser 4 hours ago [-]
This is mentioned in her book. In the book she says Meta wanted to build the pipeline, despite the warnings. But yes, ultimately the construction fell through.

She is not claiming the pipeline exists today.

hluska 7 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
zombiwoof 8 hours ago [-]
Kinda wild this is a buried story. This should be top news
nextworddev 6 hours ago [-]
probably a lot of "algorithmic" downvoters
jongjong 8 hours ago [-]
It's interesting to think about the way in which the Chinese government operates compared to the government of other countries like the US. The US government was conceived as merely a public utility to fund public works; there was no single ideological basis beyond that. Freedom isn't a "single" ideology because it encapsulates all possible ideologies. The ideology rested with the people themselves to implement on an individual basis. The CCP, on the other hand, was conceived as an ideological movement with specific goals.

Now that the Chinese economy has become so important in the world, the ideological aspects are seeping into the economies of all countries, though it doesn't translate well into western politics. I think this is because the western political system was a limited-trust system, it only worked well when the state was anemic; if the state becomes big (cash-rich), companies will find that they can start to earn significant sums of money from the state, they will redirect their attention to catering to the needs of the state and away from the private sector. Unfortunately the western state has no intrinsic ideology, no intrinsic needs or goals, so it will lead to corruption or faux-adoption of external ideologies (as a means to serve private financial interests).

Western governments cannot form genuine ideological movements (besides the ideology of economic pragmatism) IMO because their foundations aren't designed to support anything besides that. They are founded on the principles of individualism and limited state power.

486sx33 8 hours ago [-]
Precisely why China needs to be a whole lot less important to the world. Freedom and personal liberty actually are ideologies. They don’t encompass every ideology that doesn’t make sense at all.

I’d say CCP and many other governments like Russia and Ukraine are FAR more corrupt than the US. Your argument really doesn’t make sense.

walleeee 7 hours ago [-]
> Freedom and personal liberty actually are ideologies.

Feyerabend in particular would likely differ, and say instead that freedom and liberty are what emerge when mature adults democratically order their societies, irrespective (or in spite) of any ideologies used to bind them

egberts1 6 hours ago [-]
Yes

Paul Feyerabend, a philosopher of science, argued that true freedom and liberty arise when individuals actively and democratically shape their societies, free from the dominance of any single ideology, including science. He contended that science, often regarded as the ultimate path to knowledge, is merely one of many traditions and should not hold a privileged position in society. Feyerabend advocated for a “democratic relativism,” emphasizing equal rights for all traditions and proposing a separation between the state and any specific ideology, akin to the separation of church and state. He believed that this approach would allow individuals to live according to their own values and beliefs, fostering a more inclusive and liberated society.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0020174800860189...

Feyerabend, P. (1980). Democracy, Elitism, and Scientific Method. Inquiry, 23(1), 3–18.

https://doi.org/10.1080/00201748008601890

goatlover 3 hours ago [-]
> He contended that science, often regarded as the ultimate path to knowledge, is merely one of many traditions and should not hold a privileged position in society.

He's plain wrong about that part. Science isn't another tradition, it's a way of putting the world to the test to figure out how things work. It's absurd and dangerous to maintain Feyerabend's view in the midst of a pandemic or climate change, for example, which we've seen with the alternate facts and conspiracy theories.

analog31 6 hours ago [-]
I'd love to know the reference for that. I've read a couple of Feyerabend's books, but it was years ago, and I gave them away, but would not mind taking another look.
walleeee 6 hours ago [-]
he says something like this in Science in a Free Society, I'll see if I can find it.
A_D_E_P_T 7 hours ago [-]
Dude the US is insanely corrupt, it's just that a lot of the corruption is called "lobbying" and "consulting." Sometimes also certain forms of "legal counsel." It's whitewashed and normalized.
dullcrisp 6 hours ago [-]
I’ll admit to having engaged in some of those activities if pressed.
MeetingsBrowser 5 hours ago [-]
Seems like you just did, unprompted.
dullcrisp 4 hours ago [-]
You got me!
7 hours ago [-]
hluska 7 hours ago [-]
Many “western” governments have formed genuine ideological movements. I understand this may be difficult, but what are you actually talking about?
saulpw 6 hours ago [-]
And the US specifically was founded on the concepts of 'rights' and 'freedoms'
marenkay 4 hours ago [-]
The special kind of freedom that is limited to one specific group of people. See recent events for reference.
EasyMark 4 hours ago [-]
And China has no corruption or grifting in the government? I do not believe that at all. I reckon it's just as rife as any western government. What the do get right is long term planning and sticking to it, but giving it a time limit (5 years) and the reevaluate priorities. The American government literally has several founding documents and a purpose, I don't see how you think otherwise? Can cronyism happen? Sure, no one is denying that. However what set us apart during the recent downturn is we had some of the most free trade in the world. Now Trump is wrecking that with tariffs and short sighted "look a squirrel!" tactics.
squigz 6 hours ago [-]
The effects of decades of American propaganda at work...
gradientsrneat 5 hours ago [-]
I despise Facebook for many reasons, privacy being a major factor. On the other hand, both Trump and Musk own competing social media companies, and the CEOs of other social media companies have attempted to curry their favor. So, there is a potential for conflict of interest here, which could lead to a misproportion of due process. Or, regardless of truthfulness, some form of leverage. Or the trial is just for show. Maybe the accusations are true, but there's a reason this person is coming forward now.
travisgriggs 4 hours ago [-]
Won’t matter. A handful of judges will use big words, cite legalese, and it won’t matter.

Every time I think “but the law/constitution won’t allow…” there’s some end run.

The rule of law is only as good as thems that rule the law.

neilv 8 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
neilv 7 hours ago [-]
At least 4 downvotes, no explanation. What's the problem?

I'm curious what the situation is: did the person speak up internally, were they disempowered, did they go along with it but then have a change of heart at some point, etc.?

m-ee 6 hours ago [-]
She wrote a whole book about it, and yes that’s more or less her claim. Her telling is that she tried to avoid touching China policy as long as possible until she was forced into it, largely as retaliation for reporting sexual harassment from Joel Kaplan. Kaplan and Zuckerberg were directing most of the China policy personally so she had little to no ability to overrule them.

The audiobook is free if you have Spotify premium.

9283409232 10 hours ago [-]
> Meta says it regularly discloses the fact that it generates advertising revenue from advertisers based in China but says that doesn’t mean that it operates services in China. It says its services are banned in China.

This is phrasing is very weaselly. All foreign companies in China either partner with or are operated by a domestic company like Alibaba or Tencent. Saying "we don't operate our services in China" is like saying water is wet to people who know what that really means. It doesn't in anyway invalidate the claims made against them.

wavemode 9 hours ago [-]
But this isn't Meta operating in China. This is Chinese companies operating in the US.

It's not clear to me why it matters that Chinese companies advertise on Facebook, nor in what way this would give them leverage to force Facebook to commit the treason alleged by this article.

Without further evidence the story isn't really adding up.

throwaway48476 5 hours ago [-]
Pharmaceutical companies are huge advertisers for news publications and shows. It's not because the readers and viewers can buy the product because they can't. They advertise because it buys influence over the news.
amanaplanacanal 9 hours ago [-]
Yeah they are being weasly about it. They offer advertising services on China, just not their front end social media service.
droopyEyelids 9 hours ago [-]
It might not be that weasley if they only allow Chinese companies to buy advertising

It would not require a partnership to buy stuff outside the country

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