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That's a Lot of YAML (noyaml.com)
AlphaCharlie 10 days ago [-]
Yaml is the language nobody needed. All we wanted was a better JSON format that supports comments and doesn’t crash with an extra comma as the end of a list, eg: [1,2,3,]
zzlk 10 days ago [-]
JSON5 is exactly what you're looking for and has somewhat decent adoption. I use it for configuration on one of my projects and I really enjoy it.
morkalork 10 days ago [-]
Does it support float NaNs? Only asking because of Python's quirky non-standard implementation
huem0n 10 days ago [-]
I want multiline strings and references
marginalia_nu 10 days ago [-]
Have you considered XML?
MarkSweep 10 days ago [-]
Or heck, PLists. They have an XML representation that is fairly similar to what JSON can express.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_list

mdaniel 9 days ago [-]
As someone who has tried to parse this crazypants as a side-effect of the old 1Password.opvault, please don't. The idea that one has to //key[text()=="firstname"]/following-sibling::string/text() because they're not nested they're siblings. Insanity
sevensor 10 days ago [-]
Trailing commas for sure, but I buy the argument that comments would be used to sneak in arbitrary directives and break interoperability. In fact, I’d like to see a less featureful JSON where everything is strings. Trivial parsing, leave interpretation up to the receiver.
OskarS 10 days ago [-]
For a configuration language, comments are absolutely crucial. You want to be able to say "# This option is set because <so-and-so>" to explain why you are configuring it this way to the next person that reads the code (or you, in the future).

If the price to pay is that there is some risk some dummy might start parsing the comments as code, so be it. This is not a really a problem in "regular" programming languages, I don't see why it would be in a configuration language.

mmh0000 10 days ago [-]
I will start by saying, I completely agree with you!

But, then, I have to behave like a typical computer nerd and say..

Well ackchuallyyyyyy:

  > "This is not a really a problem in "regular" programming languages"
Browsers do stupid: <!--[if IE 8]>

Linux does stupid: #!/bin/bash

C/C++ (preprocessor marcos) do stupid: #ifdef

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_comment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comment_(computer_programming)

everforward 9 days ago [-]
I don’t think the Linux one is that stupid, but it might be me.

It’s not a “magic comment” because it doesn’t depend on the runtime. It specifies an interpreter to use, regardless of the language of the file.

Eg you can use #!/usr/bin/python for a Python script. I don’t find it worse than the existing alternative of making the file name magic and finding and interpreter based on that.

mmh0000 4 days ago [-]
It is a magic comment though.

It's a comment ignored by the interpreter (bash, python, whatever).

The kernel just says "Hey! You can't execute a text file, you weirdo! I'll just read the very first line of the text file and if it happens to be a comment that points to another executable, I'll run that and pass it this file."

daymanstep 9 days ago [-]
Macros are not comments.
mdaniel 10 days ago [-]
> This is not a really a problem in "regular" programming languages

https://go.dev/wiki/Comments#directives :-D

gotimo 10 days ago [-]
They said "regular" programming languages
rk06 10 days ago [-]
Comments by themselves provide enough value to justify their supports.

Plus non standard stuff is not a valid argument. As there are many tools which support non standard behaviour, because useful features like comment are considered non standard

karczex 10 days ago [-]
In most cases Yaml is bizarre kind of DSL with tricky way of API interaction. For instance - I don't understand why exactly the same Ansible API isn't just python library?
mdaniel 9 days ago [-]
For the same reason any DSL exists: because the programming representation is a lot more verbose than the DSL, due to the computers not currently honoring the "you know what I meant" flag

  #!/usr/bin/env python3
  """A made up example of the line noise"""
  from ansible import *
  def main():
    hosts = ["localhost"]
    for h in hosts:
      run_one_host(h)
  def run_one_host(inventory_hostname: str):
    connection = ansible.builtin.ssh(inventory_hostname)
    print("sniff out the machine's os")
    host_vars = ansible.builtin.setup(gather_subset="os", connection)
    if host_vars["distribution"] == "ubuntu":
      dest = "/etc/apt"
    else ...
      dest = "/etc/something else"
         
    print("do something awesome")
    copy_ok = ansible.builtin.copy(src="./some_file", dest=dest, connection)
    ...

That said, I can't readily imagine why you couldn't do exactly what you said because the AnsibleModule[1] contract is JSON over stdin/stdout (and one can write Ansible modules in any programming language[2] - they just default to Python)

1: https://github.com/ansible/ansible/blob/v2.18.4/lib/ansible/...

2: https://docs.ansible.com/ansible-core/2.18/dev_guide/develop... and https://github.com/ansible/ansible/blob/v2.18.4/test/integra...

vrighter 7 days ago [-]
python (as much as I personally dislike the language itself) has clean syntax for sets, dicts and arrays. Which are the data structures you use in a playbook. Ansible as python instead of yaml can be made to look very similar to current playbooks. But saner. And easier to script.
mdaniel 7 days ago [-]
Oh, sorry I misunderstood, then. So, closer to the troposphere version of using python to generate json to feed into ansible?
vrighter 1 days ago [-]
ansible is already written in python. Just eliminate the json/yaml and let us use it from python directly.
watwut 10 days ago [-]
Yes, this.
fbrchps 10 days ago [-]
This format is unreadable on mobile, it keeps opening up my keyboard and scrolling up a bit when it does.

I understand and appreciate the "why" of the format, but this also could have been a non-editable "editor-like" presentation and achieved the same result.

eclipticplane 10 days ago [-]
This site's mobile experience mirrors my feelings when having to edit deeply nested and templated YAML.
trallnag 10 days ago [-]
Is editing deeply nested JSON and XML a better experience than YAML? I don't think so.
mcpeepants 10 days ago [-]
I’d argue yes, strictly due to the lack of significant whitespace.
strunz 9 days ago [-]
That's a really odd reason to prefer something used as a configuration language where readability is important.
zzlk 10 days ago [-]
From the bottom of the article:

> # ps. By design, this website is as usable as YAML.

It's intentionally bad.

hnuser123456 10 days ago [-]
And from their own testimonials section:

> The good news (I realised) was that you can select all the text of the site, and then delete it. Problem solved.

efilife 9 days ago [-]
karczex 10 days ago [-]
This site is beautiful in it's own way.
efilife 9 days ago [-]
Its. It's is a contraction of it+is
huem0n 10 days ago [-]
Yeah theres some problem, but reading a multiline code block (like github actions bash script) as an indent-escaped string is so much better than having to understand crazy triple-escaped characters like "sed \"\\\\\\"name1\\\\\\\"\""
stevage 10 days ago [-]
What's even better is just using an actual programming language. Not bash, not sed, not yaml. Just python or NodeJS.
mdaniel 10 days ago [-]
This is the same debate folks have between Maven and Gradle: do you want CI code to be able to do *anything* that Python or Node can do, or do you want well defined knobs people can turn. If nothing else, it makes code reviews for CI way less drama than trying to use some bespoke dsl-in-python that re-implements {job: {steps: [{run: ...}]}} in a less legible way
stevage 9 days ago [-]
Yeah. My experience has often been that you end up with a task that is very easy and familiar to write in say Bash, that you then have to solve a puzzle to write in Ansible/Puppet/whatever. Which feels exactly like what you're saying: a DSL re-implementing something else in a less legible way.

I guess it's like anything: for the right task, the right tool works well. But invariably, a tool will eventually be pushed into use for the wrong task.

theamk 10 days ago [-]
you only think until you have to extract some information from it. "Here is a dir full of CI job definitions, find all the ones which require extra permissions" - trivial in yaml or json or toml, could be hard to impossible for Python/nodejs.

or "I am doing ci job frontend, for each job I need to get a list of inputs it takes and their description, but without doing full code checkout" - good luck doing this if your jobs are in python/nodejs.

(to be fair, there are programming languages that are also severely limited and can be evaluated mostly safely, like Starlark, but I don't think they'd match your definition)

PollardsRho 10 days ago [-]
I will die on the hill that TOML should be used for the vast majority of what YAML's used for today. There are times a full language is needed, but I've seen so many YAML files that use none of the features YAML has with all of the footguns.
mdaniel 9 days ago [-]
The thinking that would lead one to the conclusion of "yeah, fine, pick whatever characters you want for the string contents" is a "you are I are solving different problems"

https://github.com/toml-lang/toml/blob/1.0.0/toml.md#user-co...

Xiol32 10 days ago [-]
TOML is worse and even harder to read. I'd take YAML any day over TOML.
bloppe 9 days ago [-]
Yaml is a sad Icarus parable. The syntax is great but the type inference is too much. I don't see why we have to throw the baby out with the bathwater and settle for toml, though.

Here's how yaml's type inference should work:

- All object keys are strings (with or without quotes)

- Value atoms are parsed the exact same way as in JSON5

I'm kinda shocked this isn't a thing. StrictYAML is cool but a bit too cumbersome IMO.

aiiizzz 10 days ago [-]
But toml isn't any better than yaml. It's difficult to read
lfpeb8b45ez 10 days ago [-]
I find the configuration complexity clock always valuable in framing conversations like this: https://mikehadlow.blogspot.com/2012/05/configuration-comple...
AtlasBarfed 9 days ago [-]
I wrote a really long blog post about this once without the clock metaphor.

This is far superior in illustrating the slippery slope.

Aside from that slide too an inevitable dinner with Turing completeness, there's often the problem of sourcing information from multiple files overlaying it backtracking where it's sourced from.

Docker files are an example of this, as is the complete list of config values in spring framework (it's like 30 different sources).

In addition config starts getting into secured secrets, service invocations, database lookups, operating system commands, and who else knows what.

So not only is it really a touring complete problem, it veers into hellscape that is system integration.

sabslikesobs 10 days ago [-]
I'm a big fan of YAML after coming from JSON and, later, ProtoBuf's many definition formats while working at Google---but it's true that there are a lot of oddities in YAML's magical parsing. I'm grateful for the many ways it's possible to quickly an naturally define simple hierarchies of data (for example, in a docker-compose file).

This website does the rare thing of, after complaining, providing a long list of alternatives. It's really nice.

soraminazuki 10 days ago [-]
YAML's idea of human readability misses the mark. Especially anchors. They're the worst tools for abstraction.

JSON with functions as the high level format and JSON as the low level format is the way to go. Examples include Nix and Jsonnet. They're much nicer to deal with and less error prone.

zombot 10 days ago [-]
> # Anyone wondering why their first seven Kubernetes clusters deploy just fine, and the eighth fails?

Yay, octal numbers! But don't panic, lots of supposed C programmers fall for exactly the same trick when prefixing numbers with `0`.

stevage 10 days ago [-]
I can take credit for one of these, the 63 ways to wrap a string, on line 156.
nlawalker 10 days ago [-]
That's what https://yaml-multiline.info is for! I know the author's on HN, I hope they chime in here :)

Amusingly, the Stack Overflow answer you linked in your contribution is the second result in a Google search for "YAML multiline string" or the like, after yaml-multiline.info; the two combined appear to the canonical resource on the web.

stevage 9 days ago [-]
Heh, not sure if you realise, but that website was inspired by my SO answer. (I'm credited at the bottom).
sbennettmcleish 10 days ago [-]
When it comes to AWS Cloudformation, I love YAML. Can't think of any other positive use though.
mdaniel 10 days ago [-]
They should be beaten about the head and shoulders for how atrocious this is: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSCloudFormation/latest/UserGui...

Also, due to it failing to work as advertised, I just use `cfn-lint --info -e` to grab the transformed template and use that for realz.

pankajdoharey 10 days ago [-]
All I see is Lisp:

#Operator: - Operand 1 - Operand 2

10 days ago [-]
tryauuum 10 days ago [-]
I like writing yaml

(context: I've never had to write 1000-line yaml files for kubernetes)

RadiozRadioz 10 days ago [-]
Yawn. I'll keep using XML. While many waste their youth pointlessly reinventing XSDs in YAML/JSON/TOML/JSON5/HJSON, I'll still be here. Living. Content.
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